Feb. 18, 2022

NFT Communities: Collections, NFT utility, and DAOs with Charlie Ward (Weekend Club) + Spryos Galanis (Economics Professor)

NFT Communities: Collections, NFT utility, and DAOs with Charlie Ward (Weekend Club) + Spryos Galanis (Economics Professor)

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Episode Description

This episode explores a few different, but related, NFT and Web3 communities. I talk to Community Manager and founder of Weekend Club - Charlie Ward - about his journey into crypto and NFTs.  We discuss Tokenomics and DOAs (Decentralised Autonomous Organisations). As well as a few NFT projects including Creepz and Pool Suite.


To help clarify the economic mechanisms around Tokenomics and DOAs, I also speak to Spyros Galanis in this episode. He's a Professor of Economics at Durham University and advisor to Aaro Capital on various aspects of blockchain and web3 (from an economic perspective).


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Transcript

 [00:00:00] paul: In the last episode of minted, I scratched the surface of NFT marketplaces Open Sea magic Eden, and now enigma.art are all online marketplaces where anyone can buy and sell NFTs. Anyone can create NFTs too, but broadly speaking, I've seen three main categories of NFT. I'm going to focus on just one category of NFT today. 

[00:00:39] As we explore communities, the first category I've noticed are the NFTs made by individual artists who release one- off images or limited editions of a small series, every genre of art. And in every style you can think of are already available on the NFT marketplace. From illustrations, animation, photography, digital painting, and even AI generated images. 

[00:01:06] The second category of NFTs I've seen are the ones by big name brands who are just starting to explore the space fashion brands like Nike, and now luxury brands like Louis Vuitton, Prada, and even Cartier are all creating NFT projects. But for the last couple of months, it's actually been the third category of NFT. That's interested me the most. And that's NFT collectibles. 

[00:01:30] Board Ape Yacht Club, crypto punks doodles, pudgy penguins. These are all collections collections are where I'm going to focus today's episode. 

[00:01:44] Each collection is made up of thousands of images, usually $10,000. The style of the image is typically a portrait that makes for a good profile picture on your social media account. It takes a whole team to create, manage a project like this. The team normally includes a project manager, artists, web three developers, community managers, and probably a web designer. 

[00:02:06] These teams aren't creating 10,000 images by hand. Instead, the artists create variations of each element that appears on the character in the collection. Facial features like eyes, glasses, mouths, teeth, but also hats, hair, jewellery, anything you can think of these elements then pulled together using a simple algorithm that ensures some elements and therefore some characters in the collection are statistically more rare than others. 

[00:02:35] Prominent features like gold teeth, for example, that are also verifiable as being rare, can have a huge effect on price. Some marketplaces and other tools are available that provide data on those rarity rankings. In this week's episode, I'm exploring NFT communities, specifically the communities around the NFT collections I just. 

[00:02:58] So when I talk about NFT projects in this episode, I'm referring to the collections like board apes, crypto punks, and so on, not the big brands or individual artists, 

[00:03:18] since anyone can trade an NFT. And with so many new projects appearing every week, what makes some NFTs more successful than others? Given what I've seen in the last couple of months, I'd say there are two components to every NFT project, the team creating it is the first component, but the second more important component is community. 

[00:03:41] The communities that form around NFT projects are made up of people who are new to the space, just because the whole NFT space is still pretty new. Then there's the people who got into NFTs after already being active in cryptocurrency and decentralized finance for awhile. Also known as defy, getting to the point where I could even begin to understand how these communities and markets overlap. 

[00:04:04] That all began. When I talked to two people in particular and they're the people we're going to hear from today. The first person is Charlie ward.  

[00:04:11] Charlie Ward: So I'm the founder of a remote community called weekend club. We're basically community that helps soda founders and bootstrappers get to ramen profitable. Um, we do that by helping connect you with other founders, um, say more productive through co-working. 

[00:04:28] The goal is just to make the journey much less lonely and more fun and more productive and successful. Go out something like 80 members now. We do in real life and remote co-working. Um, education as well. We have in-house mentors and also a bunch of discounts.  

[00:04:44] paul: The second person you'll hear from today is Spyros Galanis. 

[00:04:47] spyros: I'm a professor of economics at the department of economics and finance at Durham university business school. My research is on decision theory and game theory. So I'm in economist. I'm doing a bit of behavioral economics, a bit of finance, and also some of my research is the intersection of economics and computer science  

[00:05:10] paul: last year, Sypros organized panel discussions and short courses on the economics of blockchain and cryptocurrencies. And is also an advisor to Aaro capital regularly. Writing reports such as an introduction to distributed ledger technology and blog posts on stable coins, digital securities, and on-chain governance. Being able to talk to an economist who understands a lot more than I do about this stuff. It's really helped me. And I hope it's going to help you as. 

[00:05:52] There is nothing more important than community. Community is universal and it's ubiquitous to both our online and offline lives. Communities are about people. So it made sense to me to talk to an economist since economists seek, to explain what drives human behavior in a variety of contexts, like when there's uncertainty risk or some other factors that affect decision-making, there's plenty of uncertainty and risk in NFTs. 

[00:06:25] I suspect a lot of people see more scams and risks than they see a strong sense of community. When it comes to NFTs communities, don't make the news as much as big scams do, but I feel strongly that we need to highlight great NFT communities and understand how they work together, how they create value for a project. 

[00:06:45] And I also want to understand how the economic mechanisms of some of these NFT projects, which people called Tokanomics, how these mechanisms motivate the community. So let's start with the question. What is community? I think it's important to stay grounded to a very intuitive concept. One that answers the question. 

[00:07:07] What is community by associating community with a feeling we've all had. 

[00:07:17] Loneliness for many of us, that feeling has been more present during the Corona virus pandemic. The author Johann Hari in his book, lost connections, frames, loneliness as the total absence of community. So I thought we should try and understand the power of community by thinking about what it means to be without one. 

[00:07:42] What it means to be lonely, to end loneliness, Hari rights, you need other people plus something else. You also need to feel you're sharing something with the other person or the group, something that's meaningful to both of you. You have to be in it together and it can be anything you both think has meaning and value. 

[00:08:18] You might've noticed that in Charlie's introduction without any prompting actually mentioned loneliness as a reason for starting the community in the first place.  

[00:08:26] Charlie Ward: The goal was just to make the journey much less lonely and more fun and more productive and successful. Let me repeat this concept again, in the context of NFTs, just to keep everything grounded, the feeling of loneliness is the total absence of community. 

[00:08:45] paul: To say there is an NFT community means we should find groups of people who feel they're in it together. We should find companionship collaboration and going by Hari's definition, we should find that NFT communities are full of people who feel they're sharing something that has meaning and value. So I feel that the technology around crypto assets and blockchain has reached a critical point where NFTs can have meaning and value for people. 

[00:09:20] There's a trend I've already seen that's come about from the NFT and defy communities coming together. More one that could really grow in future. 

[00:09:31] It's actually already possible to use some NFTs as collateral for a loan on some defy platforms. In other words, someone will lend you money if they can hold onto your NFT. And if you're unable to pay back your de-centralized loan, then your NFT gets liquidated in order to pay back the lenders. What I think is more interesting because it aligns the incentives of multiple communities is the potential for what's being called NFT farming. 

[00:10:05] This is when a group of people who invested in the same NFT collection. Usually there's several thousand NFTs in a collection. They all stake their NFT on a . Staking. It means that those NFTs can't be traded anymore on marketplaces. They're locked into the defy platform, but you still own them. This increases the scarcity of the NFT, which can in turn, increase its value. 

[00:10:32] But staking an NFT in this way also means that the owners of the NFT can create value from something that was just going to sit in their wallet. The DeFi platform unlocks the value of the NFT temporarily effectively loaning the value of the NFT to people who want to borrow money. So for an investor, who's staking their NFT on a defy platform. 

[00:10:54] Something I did this week, it's essentially the same as putting in cryptocurrency, except you don't sell your NFT in order to put the money in. So when a DeFi platform earns money from lending to borrowers, they pass that profit onto the lenders, usually in the form of some proprietary token, which you can eventually exchange out for U S dollars or some other currency. 

[00:11:18] From what I understand this whole mechanism is not dissimilar to how the play-to-earn concept works in a number of NFT based game projects. Either way for people less interested in games who could be earning something rather than just having NFTs sit in their wallet. I think if this catches on, this could be really big for NFT collectors, but will also prove to be the way most people who start with NFTs get into decentralized finance. 

[00:11:48] Okay. Let's bring in Charlie. I want you to listen out for when his curiosity about NFTs turned into a sense of community. In other words, when he started to connect with people about the meaning and value of NFTs, my, my world's like community building. I also do UX research as a freelancer. I'm just very interested in, um, the world of community and bootstrapping, some of which is web2, but also web3 stuff. 

[00:12:17] I came across an NFT at the beginning of 2020. I didn't really think much of them to be honest. Um, but it's where I saw the crossover of like online identity. When I started seeing people set their profile pictures as their NFTs like that wasn't something I'd ever really seen or thought about before. I just thought that was very interesting. 

[00:12:35] Charlie Ward: Um, for some reason, and I found a few projects that I thought were super cool. So I just thought I'd get involved and start buying them. And once you buy them, that leads you naturally into discord communities and multiple other crypto communities. You have to really get into these community Discord communities to really like, get, feel for the space and discover more stuff, being in the right communities, you just naturally start discovering more and more projects. Then you find other people to follow on Twitter. And that's how you get more and more into it. The basic principles for making any community successful at a high level, it's pretty much the same. There are two reasons communities are successful. 

[00:13:11] The first is people usually join a community to like there's some kind of goal. They have. The goal of some communities is more specific than others. So we can club. Ultimately we want to help people, you know, gets around profitable. And there's a few ways we do that. The second thing is like the vibe of the community you enjoy being with these people. 

[00:13:30] Um, you enjoy talking to them, you enjoy reading what people write and meeting them. And if you can, now those two things, then, you know, you're in a good place. That's true of communities, whether it's at your local WeightWatchers or if it's an NFT one. I think tone of voice and like writing style is actually quite an underrated thing in the community space. 

[00:13:49] I actually used to work in creative agencies, recognize this a bit more, I think, than some people. So Bored Ape Yacht Club, one of the most underrated things is their copywriting and their tone of voice was really good. It seems like a small thing, but the communication of some projects, it's just like an intern's doing it. 

[00:14:04] It's very hard to measure the impact of this, but I think it has a greater impact than people realize there's a recent one called Creepz. Um, with the Z at the end, the whole thing is about these lizards who are invading the earth is a kind of conspiracy theory, themed NFT projects, the reasons they've done so well, first of all, the artwork for the profile pictures is cool. 

[00:14:25] They're very on top of the community building and they're making people feel respected. It's not enough to just be a nice person and talk to people a lot. You have to deliver as well. They're very good at community building and community building is a lot of things. Um, part of that is like, just like the general vibe, their messaging. 

[00:14:43] Like when they do a tweet, it's quite funny. They run regular, ask me anythings, all their communications are just really one brand. And on-point, and funny, it's just more engaging, but they do have community leaders, um, who, you know, they talk like normal people, but from the creeps Twitter account, for example, That's an overlord who oversees all of the creeps. 

[00:15:07] There's a message who comes from the overlord and discord. And it's just hilarious. Like every time it comes through, I actually is like a real overlord exists, but it obviously it doesn't, but it's just funny. And people just like in the vibe of it. So they've got like a really solid team. It's not just an NFT project where you buy an NFT. 

[00:15:23] It's also like a Play-to-Earn. So you need to own an NFC to get involved in the game. And you stake your NFT. So you can earn this token that they've created, which you can then in turn, spend on upgrades to for various items. And it's, it's not a complicated game. I wouldn't say it's not like playing halo or something. 

[00:15:42] It's obviously much more simplistic. The general concept of the game is just very well thought out. Creeps, just packaged all this stuff together. Really nicely to get the community excited. And they're actually delivering when you deliver what you say you're going to do. They keep people happy. Let's just recap this a little bit. 

[00:16:02] So there's a broad NFT community on Twitter. There are also NFT communities on Tik TOK, Instagram, Facebook, and the messaging app telegram. It's common when an NFT project starts that they invite people from those wider community platforms to join a discord server. If you're not familiar, a discord server is like slack or other chat apps for larger groups or companies was actually originally designed for gamers. 

[00:16:29] There's lots of different channels in a discord server and each one will be named a specific topic and that helps keep the conversations focused. So along with the community members who are in the discord, so. There's also moderators. And those people are either in the core team of that NFT project or their trusted members of the community that they've built around them. 

[00:16:54] The job of the moderator is to remove or ban anyone who breaks the community rules. Those rules are typically common sense to most people be nice. Don't spam, don't be racist, rude, or aggressive to people that kind of. These NFT Discords typically have a couple of read, only channels for things like announcements and for the team to be able to share the correct URLs relating to the project. 

[00:17:19] I saw someone in a discord server this week, who'd lost $400 from a fake link that he was sent by someone pretending to be one of the core team. It's those kinds of scams that are causing opinions to be divided around NFTs. I asked Charlie, why he felt some people were so skeptical and what his own motivations are for investing. 

[00:17:39] Is he in it for the art or for the money or for both  

[00:17:42] Somewhere like weekend club, we have a lot of people who are skeptical of the space in the community. Not many people seem to be in the middle. They're all very pro or very anti, but there's a lot of developers who are very skeptical. People who are outside the space, just throw out numbers, like oh, 80% of NFT activity is wash trading. 

[00:18:00] I've seen that before, which is based on nothing essentially. There's no evidence for that. Um, I'm not saying there is no like money laundering. I'm sure there is a certain level, but I think people underestimate how much people actually enjoy being in these communities and buying and selling them. I've seen it with my own eyes. 

[00:18:16] I'm also one of these people and it's not just me and a load of money launderers I kind of know other people doing it. I also own physical arts. Right. You know, I don't really pay much thought to, could I sell this for more one day? If I really like it, I'll collect it. And NFTs, I admit it is slightly different. 

[00:18:37] I wa- I want to like it and I also want to make money from it. And I think that's okay. I think that most people are in that position as well Generally speaking, I have to like the artwork. So if it goes. You know, enjoy it or what would make it my profile picture for a bit or something with this creeps one recently I just came across it. 

[00:18:57] Like the artwork likes the idea behind the sort of Play-to-Earn seemed unique. Someone I trusted who had some kind of knowledge of the team was like, you know, they're really serious. And they're like very good. And it just seemed like a fun thing to get involved with. And that was it really, it didn't that that's all it kind of takes. 

[00:19:14] I bought my first NFT, I think in maybe may. So if I sold everything now I would be in profit, but it's not like a massive profit. I've got some things I think they could five or 10 X, one day. I'm cautious not to spend more than I can afford to lose. Obviously you sleep at night, so you're better, but you're not forced to make rash decisions. 

[00:19:36] And you're willing to hold things long term, because that's where the generally speaking you have two ways to earn money, assuming you're a decent decision-maker. If you actively trade people do very well off that. But like, you know, you've got to have the time to do it and the ability, and I don't have like tons of time to do that. 

[00:19:54] I've sold a few things here and there. So I just try and like a bit more of a sharp shooter. And well, I like to think that anyway, um, maybe I'm not, yeah, I just take my time with it and just buy stuff. It's not like buying coins where the only reason you would do that most of the time is to make more money with NFTs. 

[00:20:12] It's actually fun. The process of. You know, hearing about one, get researching the project, getting involved, staking it like being in the community. It's actually quite fun. So that's another reason that it's quite popular.  

[00:20:25] paul: Charlie happened to mention a use for NFTs that I wasn't familiar with before. It relates to a whole new level of community. 

[00:20:32] Charlie Ward: Another increasingly common category of NFT is just a membership NFT, where it gets you access to like some kind of. Club or services.  

[00:20:42] paul: How this works is when you buy an NFT? It actually shows up in the same wallet where you keep your cryptocurrency. Many of these wallets have apps for your phone, but there's also plugins for web browsers so that you can get to your wallet from your laptop. 

[00:20:57] Remember that a blockchain is where a list of transactions is written and it can't be changed. This means that the blockchain also provides an accurate reference of who owns. because website developers can now connect to the blockchain and pull information. From there. You can now connect your wallet. 

[00:21:15] You explicitly give the website permission to see the address and potentially the contents of your wallet. If you own a particular NFT, then the website can see that and then give you access to the services that Charlie was talking about. Think of it as being similar to when you give an app on your phone permission to access your photos. 

[00:21:35] But instead of importing the photo or sending it to somebody you're using the image, like an ID card, or like a membership card, one that can be easily authenticated because it's on a blockchain. One example, he gave me of exactly. This is Pool Suite.  

[00:21:53] They created  

[00:21:53] Charlie Ward: poolside FM previously, which just plays like kind of eightiesmusic and it's got a really Web-one aesthetic. 

[00:21:59] But they did that for years and they created a really good brand or it. Hundreds of thousands, or millions of users who've been on that site. Probably they took all that brand equity and launched pool suite. They call it an internet leisure company. It's just quite funny. You should check it out. It's really cool. 

[00:22:14] They've done a good job of taking strong brand equity and translating that into like a successful NFT. They launched a, um, NFC. So you can, you could mint it for like 9.28, and this is your membership and there's only two and a half thousand. It's already like five X higher to buy one of these now than when you could mint them. 

[00:22:36] And it gives you access to certain real life experiences and merch drops. And that kind of They had very strong brand affinity already. And they're executing well and people have a lot of faith. That this is going to be worth having in the future because it's just very cool and interesting. If there's one reason to have a look at this pool suite website, it's because of their commitment to a very authentic early web slash nineties visual style. 

[00:23:05] The second you load their webpage, it's like using an apple Mac from 25 years. 

[00:23:13] It's not recognizable as a modern web page. The colors, the wallpaper, the font choice. Everything is really on brand. As soon as the site loads, music starts playing from a little media player that you can move around on a 90 style desktop interface. 

[00:23:34] There's a floating window in the center of the screen with the kind of 16 bit image that you won't have seen for years, but it's really familiar. It's really fun. And it's really on point and on brand. There's plenty to explore on the website, but I definitely recommend checking out the Instagram icon sat on the right hand side of the desktop. 

[00:23:54] And if you've ever wondered what Instagram might have actually looked like in the nineties, this is probably the only place you can go online and find out. Definitely go. The use of NFTs as a kind of membership card opens up a lot of conversations about the potential, other utilities of NFTs. Pretty much everything. 

[00:24:16] Charlie told me when we talked was news to me, as we talk more about the utilities of NFTs and the communities around them. He told me about two concepts that although I'd heard of them, I hadn't really connected them to NFTs or to. The first concept was decentralized. Autonomous organizations also known as dowels. 

[00:24:36] The second concept that came up was "Tokenomics". Again, I'd heard the term, but it wasn't clear how important it was or what Tokanomics really meant. And people seem to be using it in different ways. Having a conversation with Charlie about DOAs and Tokanomics got me more interested again. That's when I went deeper by talking to Spyros, the professor of economics, I introduced you to earlier. 

[00:24:57] spyros: My understanding of what Tokenomics is, is different from what the people let's say on the ground is right. I'm not necessarily an expert in trying to understand exactly what do they mean? It's not terminology that economists are using now, let's say, right. So it's sort of how people, uh, who actually use these things. 

[00:25:16] They refer to how targets are used. But I mean, from our point of view, it's very interesting, uh, not to study how tokens are used in this organizations and how, you know, what is the best way of designing this mechanism. Right. But, you know, from what I understand, you have like an organization or a protocol, or know what they call this now a DAO, like a decentralized autonomous organization. 

[00:25:39] And this is going to usually issue some tokens and the tokens, they behave as coins. The tokens can be used to buy the service of this organization. So they will be called utility tokens, or they can be used to vote on their organization, for example, governance tokens. So the issue for this organization is how to use these tokens to incentivize participation in the, in the, in this organization? 

[00:26:09] Right? Because some of the people are going to be coming because they want to utilize, you know, to, to use the service. A lot of them are going to just the, buy the tokens because they want to speculate one way of understanding that Tokenomics is when this organization comes into place, they say, we're going to issue this tokens, we're going to distribute them. Let's say 20% to the community. It sort of describes how we're going to use this token to achieve our goals.  

[00:26:38] And this is going to give particular incentives to different types of. So for you as a speculator, you want to say, okay, is this going to be like a one-off in one week is going to go to zero or they have a longer term? 

[00:26:50] Are they, you know, the big players, are they going to hold a tokens or they're going to just spend them? And so, so this is sort of this sort of a loose, um, I think from my understanding it's sort of a loose terminology.  

[00:27:01] paul: Pool Suite's website does say they're planning to release their own token. And this will be more like a cryptocurrency with a set of rules around how it's used the pool suite NFT provides access to exclusive real world services and merchandise. 

[00:27:17] The fact that there's only a few thousand memberships also creates scarcity and that could influence how desirable and therefore how valuable that NFT is to. The Pool Suite membership NFT does get you early access to the proposed pool suite token. From this, we can really start to see what people mean when they talk about tokenomics. 

[00:27:38] Right now, Pool Suite members aren't part of the organization. They're using a service that the company provides. We can still say there's a community around pool suite, but it's a DAO or decentralized autonomous organization that really turns a community into a governing body. Here's Spyros again, talking about DOAs, and in particular here, how a DAO could create value for its users. 

[00:28:02] spyros: When you start creating a service take, for example, Facebook. So they're trying to build a really nice service and a product, and they have two different stakeholders, right. Their investors and their users. Right. So for example, Facebook would say, okay, give me your content, your information for free forever. 

[00:28:23] And I'm going to give you a nice service and then for the, for the investor, they say that's okay. Give me your money, I'm going to build a nice service and we're going to monetize it, uh, at some point. So initially so that the investors and the users sort of on the same board, they want to build a nice Facebook, but at some point their incentives diverge, right? 

[00:28:43] At some point, the investors are going to say, now we want our money back. Right. So how are we going to do that? And then Facebook has to sort of give, uh, you know, they have to prioritize what they're going to do. Right? So for example, Facebook would say, okay, now the information that these people have given them, I'm going to sell it to advertisers, right? 

[00:29:00] So in this car, I'm going to make money. And this is not necessarily the way that the early contributors or Facebook envisioned the service. And also when you're in an early user, you go to Facebook, there's no body around. And you start putting your content, but for you, there's not really any payoff, right? 

[00:29:20] If I'm a user, some are helping Facebook now to become a better service. I'm not going to be different from a guy who comes three years later from me. This changes in, in web three in, in the following sense, the early users are also early investors. So if we do, let's say Facebook in the web three era, the way it's going to happen. 

[00:29:44] Is that you're going to issue a token and then you're going to use the token to access a service. So then you put your content there, your information, let's say your pictures, you know, you create these network effects, you invite your friends, but then because you have the tokens at the same time, if this service succeeds, then you're going to get a pay off on your tokens as well, so the targets are going to appreciate in price. 

[00:30:09] So you are an investor and a user at the same time. So the interesting thing with these decentralized organizations is that they merge in some, you know, up to a point, not completely the users with the investors. So they become one. So this means that down the line, right at the, a few years later, their incentives are going to be more aligned. So I think that's an interesting thing. And, you know, in principle it could, it could lead to a better.  

[00:30:38] paul: A DAO is a decentralized organization, but to work together as a community to talk, to discuss, to share files, people are using Twitter and discord. These are products made by centralized web two organizations. 

[00:30:54] And I don't see that changing anytime soon, but then at this stage, what do I. Talking to Charlie, he told me that he's a member of a couple of dowels as a community manager himself. He was curious about how it works in practice. Charlie gave me his definition of what a DAO is, which fits with what Spiro's told me obviously, but I still found it helpful to hear about DAOs and Tokanomics from two different people. 

[00:31:18] So hopefully you'll find that helpful too.  

[00:31:19] Charlie Ward: An original DAO is like where decisions are sort of executed via smart contracts. Um, based on the votes of the community. So I kind of try to use "tokenized community" a bit more now actually, because I think that's a more accurate description than some things that call themselves DAOs. 

[00:31:36] You start with your community. You decide we're going to create a token, you create contracts. And then when you launch you, um, at you airdrop everyone, the token, which actually costs you gas, obviously. So you need to figure out that, and then you explain, okay, this is what our vision is for our community. Now here's how you can get involved. 

[00:31:56] From now on, you have to buy a certain number of, of our token on somewhere like uni-swap or sushi- swap in order to, um, to join. Usually there's also still an application process. Um, obviously it depends on the community. In reality, a lot of DAOs they're executed by a human who can decide whether to do it or not. 

[00:32:15] If they don't do it and everyone voted for it, obviously they'll lose the trust of their community. It's not executed by smart contract. They could pass away, obviously. There's not a huge amount of recourse. I joined a few DAOs. Like the one I'm probably am in the most one called Shiny Object syndrome. 

[00:32:34] I think the idea was originally just to share interesting projects. They found online. I think a few months ago, they actually became a tokenized community, a DAO. So the early members no longer have to kind of pay a subscription and they got airdrops a shiny token. Not only can you buy and sell this, you can actually use. 

[00:32:51] You have to have a certain amount to be a member and you can also use it for governance voting. So it's now like a kind of traditional DAO and there's lots of ways to get involved. Just seeing how a community that's sort of a non DAO becomes a DAO that just watching that process has been very interesting. 

[00:33:07] And for community to do this, as long as you have the knowledge and resources to do it, I mean, it's fairly straightforward, I guess. There's a playbook on how to do it is what I mean. I'm not saying it's easy to execute.  

[00:33:19] paul: Hopefully this has been a useful introduction to DAOs and Tokenomics. 

[00:33:26] Why I interviewed Charlie, I also asked him about two more things that I want to share with you. In the last part of the show, I asked Charlie, how would he build a team if he was part of an NFT collection project? And I also asked him if he was going to explore NFT memberships for his company weekend club, how would he go about doing it? 

[00:33:47] I'm thinking about integrating NFTs into the weekend club experience more. What I could think could be interesting is if there's a way you could like earn them as different kind of awards for hitting certain milestones. Let's say my version of Ramen Profitable is let's call it like 5,000 euros a month. 

[00:34:03] Right? So you can verify that easily by connecting your Stripe account to something through the API. What if, when, so you've got your two yours, it would automatically generate you a special like award NFT, for example, maybe that gives you a lifetime membership once you, once you hit that. I think that's an interesting way of kind of getting into that cause. 

[00:34:25] Um, so if you're going to offer a lifetime membership at all, I think it's actually better to do it with an NFT because it's better for brand-building. So you're creating these visual artifacts, which are out there in online, like. Open Sea, and people might have in some other places that other people can see, it's an extension of your brand in that way. 

[00:34:45] Um, also, you know, assuming that the value of being a member increases over time and with the network effects, it becomes more valuable as more people join. And as we add more services, then the value of the, of this NFT is going to increase in a way they're not only buying a membership. They're investing in. 

[00:35:04] You I've bought a membership for a service recently by an. And if I sold it now, not only have I used the service, but I could make a profit on that. It's good for the end user because they can make some kind of profit on it. If they left one day, which most people do eventually it's part of the game. But also as they created the NFC, you collect a royalty every time it's sold. 

[00:35:27] So I think that would be the first way I would start doing that. It's pretty trivial now. Creating a token is what is like an order of magnitude, more complicated and difficult and expensive. And it's a genie. You can't put back in the bottle as well, really. Once you do that, it's something I'd be much more cautious about doing. 

[00:35:46] And I probably would join an incubator to do that rather than try and do it myself because there's a lot to it. There's one called seed club, which is basically the Y Combinator of tokenized communities. I think generally the standards is just growing in terms of like how to do these things and people realizing you can actually make a lot of money doing this, if you do it right. 

[00:36:05] Even if you do it badly, people have made a lot of money doing it, which I think is attracting better and better teams the space. So I think its only a space that's four years old. Right. And so there's a lot of room for experimentation. I think what we're seeing with Creepz, I think Creepz are setting a new standards in like the levels. 

[00:36:24] The story, the brand, the community, the game, a lot's happening on that in the next couple of weeks, I think a lot of people are watching how that's going to go. Cause I think it's essentially going to take off in the next year. We're going to see a lot more of these projects launch. We're gonna see lots more tokenized communities and more, there are the more variety you might see. 

[00:36:42] So yeah, just seeing where some of these projects going to go is interesting. A lot of these are built on, on ETH on Ethereum, which has been talking about. Solving the scaling problems. For many years, people pay a lot of gas fees, which is probably a big barrier to regular people. Kind of getting involved in it, going mainstream they've built up up a huge amount of Goodwill, but like, you know, goodwill is a finite resource. 

[00:37:10] If they don't solve it within a certain timeframe. I don't know when that is. It's gonna be interesting to see if that shifts to something like.